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rich/lean problem   2003-12-25 11:08:00 <Suze W>
i chucked my car on the dyno a few days back now and i got them to run a a/f
ratio on it, i had suspicions that it might have been running lean but it
quite surprised me

they started off in second and she ran quite lean between 14.1 and 16.1 as
soon as they dropped her into drive.. bam straight to 10.1 all the way, so
she is quite rich

one thing i guess it could be is... O2 sensor crook? but it would give a
fault code wouldn't it?

only thing i have changed is head gasket 3mm compressed... advanced
timing... filter... boost was at 10psi

Cheers

Suze

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Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-25 17:22:00 <stuartw@...>
On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, Suze W wrote:

> they started off in second and she ran quite lean between 14.1 and 16.1 as
> soon as they dropped her into drive.. bam straight to 10.1 all the way, so
> she is quite rich

Turbo cars always run rich under power, they have to, otherwise they would
soon detonate to death. 10.1:1 is quite rich, maybe a bit too much, but
they do need to run quite rich. 14.4:1 would NOT be good on boost.

Regards,
Stuart.

Reply

Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-25 19:28:00 <Cully Paterson>

> Turbo cars always run rich under power, they have to,
> otherwise they would
> soon detonate to death. 10.1:1 is quite rich, maybe a bit too
> much, but they do need to run quite rich.

Ah, yeah, 10.1:1 is WAY too rich. Ideal power is somewhere between 12.5
and 13.5:1, erring towards to the former.

Cully
Reply

RE: rich/lean problem   2003-12-25 19:28:00 <Cully Paterson>


> only thing i have changed is head gasket 3mm compressed... advanced
> timing... filter... boost was at 10psi


Define 'advanced timing'...


Oh yeah, and Merry Christmas all, hiccup...


Cully
Reply

Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-25 23:47:00 <Stuart>
On Thursday 25 December 2003 19:35, you wrote:
> > Turbo cars always run rich under power, they have to,
> > otherwise they would
> > soon detonate to death. 10.1:1 is quite rich, maybe a bit too
> > much, but they do need to run quite rich.
>
> Ah, yeah, 10.1:1 is WAY too rich. Ideal power is somewhere between 12.5
> and 13.5:1, erring towards to the former.

That is an idea power figure for a non-turbo car, turbos cars will often need
to run a bit richer (pity).

Remember, many many 'A/F mixture' meters are VERY inaccurate at anything this
far away from 14.4:1, look at the curves some time (especially when related
to sensor temperature), so I wouldn't want to put money on the actualy figure
unless it was from a well controlled setup, and run with a 3 gas analyser, at
minimum, and those can only accurately track a steady state situation (not an
accellerating run), so inertial dynos don't support them very well.

Kind of sux really, but that's the way it is.

BTW, to answer part of the original question, the Mk.3 supra (and most other
cars) does not use the oxy sensor at full throttle anyway, only in 'cruise'
(but it uses what it learns there to adjust WOT a little) - so this is not a
reliable indication of your oxy sensor calibration - only the 'oscillation
rate at idle' is.

Regards,
Stuart.

Reply

RE: rich/lean problem   2003-12-26 09:39:00 <Suze W>
well it goes great under load and down the strip etc :D
timing.... 17 or 18 deg advanced with the pins not shorted


>From: "Cully Paterson" <cully@supras.org.nz>
>Reply-To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>Subject: [sconz] RE: rich/lean problem
>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 19:36:01 +1300
>
>
>
> > only thing i have changed is head gasket 3mm compressed... advanced
> > timing... filter... boost was at 10psi
>
>
>Define 'advanced timing'...
>
>
>Oh yeah, and Merry Christmas all, hiccup...
>
>
>Cully
>
>---
>Supra Club of New Zealand
>http://www.supras.org.nz/

_________________________________________________________________
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Personals!

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Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-26 09:47:00 <Suze W>
well it was beyond performance that just done the dyno... so they were
telling me they had just closed it for a week to ensure its accuracy and had
repairs done, now now i know they could just be selling me a dyno run but i
would hope i could actually believe them lol

when they stuck my car in drive i think it was about 80kms as soon as they
put it in drive she went straight to 10.1, i know that an acceptable ratio
would be around the 12.0 mark

now about this advanced timing, i can already see the response lol
a possible cause could be the timing too far advanced but if i retard my
timing any further it is gutless, absolutely gutless - i'm guessing gasket
has something to do with it
if i retard my timing... in the morning when the car is cold and i need to
go somewhere i cannot drive it as it will not rev above 2000rpm and
basically sits in a limp mode until normal temperature is reached hence why
i run advanced timing :)

Cheers

Suze


>From: Stuart <stuartw@kcbbs.gen.nz>
>Reply-To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>Subject: [sconz] Re: rich/lean problem
>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:49:02 +1300
>
>On Thursday 25 December 2003 19:35, you wrote:
> > > Turbo cars always run rich under power, they have to,
> > > otherwise they would
> > > soon detonate to death. 10.1:1 is quite rich, maybe a bit too
> > > much, but they do need to run quite rich.
> >
> > Ah, yeah, 10.1:1 is WAY too rich. Ideal power is somewhere between 12.5
> > and 13.5:1, erring towards to the former.
>
>That is an idea power figure for a non-turbo car, turbos cars will often
>need
>to run a bit richer (pity).
>
>Remember, many many 'A/F mixture' meters are VERY inaccurate at anything
>this
>far away from 14.4:1, look at the curves some time (especially when related
>to sensor temperature), so I wouldn't want to put money on the actualy
>figure
>unless it was from a well controlled setup, and run with a 3 gas analyser,
>at
>minimum, and those can only accurately track a steady state situation (not
>an
>accellerating run), so inertial dynos don't support them very well.
>
>Kind of sux really, but that's the way it is.
>
>BTW, to answer part of the original question, the Mk.3 supra (and most
>other
>cars) does not use the oxy sensor at full throttle anyway, only in 'cruise'
>(but it uses what it learns there to adjust WOT a little) - so this is not
>a
>reliable indication of your oxy sensor calibration - only the 'oscillation
>rate at idle' is.
>
>Regards,
>Stuart.
>
>
>---
>Supra Club of New Zealand
>http://www.supras.org.nz/

_________________________________________________________________
Need more speed? Get Xtra Jetstream @
http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5803,00.html !

Reply

Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-26 11:49:00 <Stuart>
On Friday 26 December 2003 09:46, you wrote:
> well it was beyond performance that just done the dyno... so they were
> telling me they had just closed it for a week to ensure its accuracy and
> had repairs done, now now i know they could just be selling me a dyno run
> but i would hope i could actually believe them lol

doesn't matter what they want, it's what equipment they use that matters.
a gas analyzer has a chance of working that rich, nothing else does.
Even a supposedly 'wide band' sensor does not do shit on the rich side - they
only measure more accurately lean, so are of little value.

> when they stuck my car in drive i think it was about 80kms as soon as they
> put it in drive she went straight to 10.1, i know that an acceptable ratio
> would be around the 12.0 mark

You could also stil have a small post-turbo air leak - I would be looking for
a cracked intercooler, or a bad seal around an air pipe, or something like
that - it could be quite small.

You can make up a fitting to go on the end of the pipe between the turbo and
AFM, usually from a suitably sized can, that seals on and has a compressor
hose fitting on it, then use it to pressurise the whole intake system - blast
it up to around 14PSI and stop - listen carefully for a leak and see if it
holds pressure.

> now about this advanced timing, i can already see the response lol
> a possible cause could be the timing too far advanced but if i retard my
> timing any further it is gutless, absolutely gutless - i'm guessing gasket
> has something to do with it
> if i retard my timing... in the morning when the car is cold and i need to
> go somewhere i cannot drive it as it will not rev above 2000rpm and
> basically sits in a limp mode until normal temperature is reached hence why
> i run advanced timing :)

Set it back to stock, otherwise it will be dropping into detonation retard all
the time, and that WILL cost you HP. not a lot but there is no gain also, so
why do it? (unless running race gas, that is.. and that has it's own risks)

Regards,
Stuart

Reply

Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-26 14:13:00 <Suze W>
my car has never detonated at any time with the timing as it is and when it
is at stock she is barely drivable, its like driving nana's corolla, the
temperature never gets up to normal and feels like limp mode all the time,
currently standard with 10psi i have so far got 156kw @ the wheels which
from what i can tell so far is actually rather good

oh the air leak thing, you mentioned the main intake to the turbo last time,
when i was fiddling with the lexus i took my intake off and found quite a
substantial split on the underside of it so that fixed that :D i don't think
i would have found it had you not mentioned it lol - thanx :)

Cheers

Suze

_________________________________________________________________
Gaming galore at http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming !

Reply

Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-26 14:30:00 <Andy S>
> my car has never detonated at any time with the
> timing as it is and when it
> is at stock she is barely drivable, its like driving
> nana's corolla, the
> temperature never gets up to normal and feels like
> limp mode all the time,
> currently standard with 10psi i have so far got
> 156kw @ the wheels which
> from what i can tell so far is actually rather good

Sounds like there is something wrong with your car.
When you set the timing do you jumper TE1 and E1? Have
you checked the water temp sensor on the thermostat
housing. Check the two wire green plug sensor. Does
your ISC click when you switch the car off?

Cheers
Andy S

=====
Visit my website http://andy.supras.org.nz

Home of the 5MGE-->7MGTE conversion!

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Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-26 15:40:00 <Stuart>
On Friday 26 December 2003 14:13, you wrote:
> my car has never detonated at any time with the timing as it is and when it
How would you know that? the ECU detects it well before any person could, and
retards the ignition suitable to make sure it does not, unfortunately it tend
to be a bit over-zelous with that, therefore a bit of a HP loss.

> is at stock she is barely drivable, its like driving nana's corolla, the
> temperature never gets up to normal and feels like limp mode all the time,
> currently standard with 10psi i have so far got 156kw @ the wheels which
> from what i can tell so far is actually rather good

Then there is something more serious wrong.

> oh the air leak thing, you mentioned the main intake to the turbo last
> time, when i was fiddling with the lexus i took my intake off and found
> quite a substantial split on the underside of it so that fixed that :D i
> don't think i would have found it had you not mentioned it lol - thanx :)

Yeah - seen enough supra guts to know where to look, but I still suspect you
have a small air leak somewhere after the turbo, or maybe a problem related
to the fact that your timing is not working for you. Checking the sealing of
the intake system would be a good first step.


Regards,
Stuart.

Reply

Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-27 12:27:00 <Cully Paterson>

> now about this advanced timing, i can already see the
> response lol a possible cause could be the timing too far
> advanced but if i retard my
> timing any further it is gutless, absolutely gutless - i'm
> guessing gasket has something to do with it
> if i retard my timing... in the morning when the car is cold
> and i need to
> go somewhere i cannot drive it as it will not rev above 2000rpm and
> basically sits in a limp mode until normal temperature is
> reached hence why
> i run advanced timing :)

OK, short answer is this: you've got something wrong there. It sounds
like you may have the timing marks on the crank pulley wrong (due to
keyway damage or the harmonic balancer twisting around its rubber
centre). What you'll need to do is this:
- Pull No.1 spark plug
- Put a long screwdriver or something down the cylinder touching the
piston
- Turn the engine over by hand until the screwdriver is at its highest
point (note the height will 'plateau' either side of TDC, so you need to
be as careful as possible about finding the central point).
- Check the timing mark - it should be dead on TDC. If it's not visible
then turn the engine over 180 degrees.
- If the timing mark isn't matched to the TDC mark then you'll need to
add/subtract the appropriate discrepancy when you set your timing.

When you set the timing make sure you've got TE1/E1 shorted and the
check light flashing at you.

Don't be tempted to advance the timing over the stock setting - as
Stuart pointed out it will do nothing for you, and in fact normally
reduce power. Remember that the timing you set is only the Base value,
and the ECU will advance it as required up the rev range. If you
advance the base value too much then you'll simply cause the ECU to
start retarding the ignition earlier in its advance curve as detonation
starts to happen - the net effect therefore is a narrower ignition curve
and therefore less power.

If the car won't go over 2000RPM when its cold then I'd suggest you've
got bigger problems than ignition timing. Recheck your cam timing,
particularly if you find that there's some discrepancy with the TDC
marks on your crank pulley - if the crank pulley is wrong and you've set
your cam timing relative to it then you're pushing crap uphill to start
with!

Cully
Reply

Re: rich/lean problem   2003-12-31 15:53:00 <Grant Brunton>
Yea mine ran about 14.7:1 at cruise and dropped to as much as 9.5:1 under
power I think. So they do get rather rich. Altho mine mighta been a bit
extreme =P

Cheers
Grant


>From: stuartw@kcbbs.gen.nz
>Reply-To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>Subject: [sconz] Re: rich/lean problem
>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 17:43:07 +1300 (NZDT)
>
>On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, Suze W wrote:
>
> > they started off in second and she ran quite lean between 14.1 and 16.1
>as
> > soon as they dropped her into drive.. bam straight to 10.1 all the way,
>so
> > she is quite rich
>
>Turbo cars always run rich under power, they have to, otherwise they would
>soon detonate to death. 10.1:1 is quite rich, maybe a bit too much, but
>they do need to run quite rich. 14.4:1 would NOT be good on boost.
>
>Regards,
>Stuart.
>
>
>---
>Supra Club of New Zealand
>http://www.supras.org.nz/

_________________________________________________________________
Gaming galore at http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming !

Reply

Re: rich/lean problem   2004-01-01 23:11:00 <Suze W>
well i figured out how to even it up

run more boost!!!!

lmao


>From: "Grant Brunton" <grantbrunton@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>Subject: [sconz] Re: rich/lean problem
>Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:52:52 +1300
>
>Yea mine ran about 14.7:1 at cruise and dropped to as much as 9.5:1 under
>power I think. So they do get rather rich. Altho mine mighta been a bit
>extreme =P
>
>Cheers
>Grant
>
>
>>From: stuartw@kcbbs.gen.nz
>>Reply-To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>>To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@supras.org.nz>
>>Subject: [sconz] Re: rich/lean problem
>>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 17:43:07 +1300 (NZDT)
>>
>>On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, Suze W wrote:
>>
>> > they started off in second and she ran quite lean between 14.1 and 16.1
>>as
>> > soon as they dropped her into drive.. bam straight to 10.1 all the way,
>>so
>> > she is quite rich
>>
>>Turbo cars always run rich under power, they have to, otherwise they would
>>soon detonate to death. 10.1:1 is quite rich, maybe a bit too much, but
>>they do need to run quite rich. 14.4:1 would NOT be good on boost.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Stuart.
>>
>>
>>---
>>Supra Club of New Zealand
>>http://www.supras.org.nz/
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Gaming galore at http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming !
>
>
>---
>Supra Club of New Zealand
>http://www.supras.org.nz/

_________________________________________________________________
Download MSN Messenger @ http://messenger.xtramsn.co.nz - add your
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