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Additional :)

2004-04-28 11:34:00

As an interesting note on the whole TEMS discussion, in case those of you don't know me, I'm doing all this on a GZ20 Soarer, so obviously it doesn't have the digital dash that the MKIII does, I have a TEMS indicator section with soft/med/hard going up the side of the dash, soft lit up indicates soft mode, soft and medium lit up indicates soft and medium, all three lit up indicates hard (obviously).. now I just jumpered Ts and E1 and as predicted when sport button is pushed it stays in hard mode, however an interesting difference, when I press normal mode (what would normally put you into the steering diagnostics mode on a MKIII, showing where the wheels are pointing etc) my car just blinks the hard and soft lights simultaneously...

I wonder if that means that I don't have that diagnostic feature, or whether both blinking means centre and one light then means steering left and the other means steering right... very intriquing... I might have to switch into normal mode on the way to work today to see if the lights indicate steering in any way... In the meantime I'm going to enjoy my permanent hard mode and see if it makes any difference on my test road :)

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz

(html version)

RE: Additional :)

2004-04-28 11:38:00

The symptoms described are perfectly normal.

_____

From: Dave Thom [mailto:supras@boost.org.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, 28 April 2004 11:34 a.m.
To: SCONZ.list Forward
Subject: [sconz] Additional :)

As an interesting note on the whole TEMS discussion, in case
those of you don't know me, I'm doing all this on a GZ20 Soarer, so
obviously it doesn't have the digital dash that the MKIII does, I have a
TEMS indicator section with soft/med/hard going up the side of the dash,
soft lit up indicates soft mode, soft and medium lit up indicates soft
and medium, all three lit up indicates hard (obviously).. now I just
jumpered Ts and E1 and as predicted when sport button is pushed it stays
in hard mode, however an interesting difference, when I press normal
mode (what would normally put you into the steering diagnostics mode on
a MKIII, showing where the wheels are pointing etc) my car just blinks
the hard and soft lights simultaneously...

I wonder if that means that I don't have that diagnostic
feature, or whether both blinking means centre and one light then means
steering left and the other means steering right... very intriquing... I
might have to switch into normal mode on the way to work today to see if
the lights indicate steering in any way... In the meantime I'm going to
enjoy my permanent hard mode and see if it makes any difference on my
test road :)

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/

(html version)

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-28 11:42:00

http://www.boost.org.nz/Hornee/DSC01845.JPG <--- just in case anybody wants a pictorial image of what I'm referring to... at the top right corner of my dash, the two green lights indicating I'm in "medium" mode, or have the sports switch on...

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Thom
To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:33 AM
Subject: [sconz] Additional :)

As an interesting note on the whole TEMS discussion, in case those of you don't know me, I'm doing all this on a GZ20 Soarer, so obviously it doesn't have the digital dash that the MKIII does, I have a TEMS indicator section with soft/med/hard going up the side of the dash, soft lit up indicates soft mode, soft and medium lit up indicates soft and medium, all three lit up indicates hard (obviously).. now I just jumpered Ts and E1 and as predicted when sport button is pushed it stays in hard mode, however an interesting difference, when I press normal mode (what would normally put you into the steering diagnostics mode on a MKIII, showing where the wheels are pointing etc) my car just blinks the hard and soft lights simultaneously...

I wonder if that means that I don't have that diagnostic feature, or whether both blinking means centre and one light then means steering left and the other means steering right... very intriquing... I might have to switch into normal mode on the way to work today to see if the lights indicate steering in any way... In the meantime I'm going to enjoy my permanent hard mode and see if it makes any difference on my test road :)

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/

(html version)

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-28 11:44:00

I didn't say there was anything abnormal about them, I'm just curious as to how my different display will indicate the steering angle (bearing in mind I haven't done this on my MKIII so I don't know how that shows it either)...

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: Cully Paterson
To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: [sconz] Additional :)

The symptoms described are perfectly normal.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dave Thom [mailto:supras@boost.org.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, 28 April 2004 11:34 a.m.
To: SCONZ.list Forward
Subject: [sconz] Additional :)

As an interesting note on the whole TEMS discussion, in case those of you don't know me, I'm doing all this on a GZ20 Soarer, so obviously it doesn't have the digital dash that the MKIII does, I have a TEMS indicator section with soft/med/hard going up the side of the dash, soft lit up indicates soft mode, soft and medium lit up indicates soft and medium, all three lit up indicates hard (obviously).. now I just jumpered Ts and E1 and as predicted when sport button is pushed it stays in hard mode, however an interesting difference, when I press normal mode (what would normally put you into the steering diagnostics mode on a MKIII, showing where the wheels are pointing etc) my car just blinks the hard and soft lights simultaneously...

I wonder if that means that I don't have that diagnostic feature, or whether both blinking means centre and one light then means steering left and the other means steering right... very intriquing... I might have to switch into normal mode on the way to work today to see if the lights indicate steering in any way... In the meantime I'm going to enjoy my permanent hard mode and see if it makes any difference on my test road :)

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/
---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/

(html version)

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-28 15:16:00

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:43, Dave Thom wrote:
> I didn't say there was anything abnormal about them, I'm just curious as to
> how my different display will indicate the steering angle (bearing in mind
> I haven't done this on my MKIII so I don't know how that shows it
> either)...

Have you tried turning the wheel a decent distance? then it should change to
just flashing one light, on the associated side.

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 07:21:00

Indeed I did this, as I said I tested it on the way to work, wheel turned
for 90deg right hand bend illuminated the hard light and not the soft so
therefore it operates in that manner... still not entirely "informative" but
gimmicky nontheless :)

As for having it stuck in hard mode, well it certainly does make a
difference, the car feels slightly less boatish around most corners, you
feel the bumps in the road a little bit more, however it has introduced a
disconcerting tendency that when going downhill through a corner it seems to
have a constant debate with itself as to whether to let the front or the
rear go first... almost a 4 wheel drift situation... kinda freaky... I'll
have to see if it changes once I get my 18"s back on the rear instead of the
skanky 15"s with high profile tyres...

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart" <stuartw@kcbbs.gen.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:43, Dave Thom wrote:
> > I didn't say there was anything abnormal about them, I'm just curious as
to
> > how my different display will indicate the steering angle (bearing in
mind
> > I haven't done this on my MKIII so I don't know how that shows it
> > either)...
>
> Have you tried turning the wheel a decent distance? then it should change
to
> just flashing one light, on the associated side.
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 10:34:00

> As for having it stuck in hard mode, well it certainly does make a
> difference, the car feels slightly less boatish around most corners, you
> feel the bumps in the road a little bit more, however it has introduced a
> disconcerting tendency that when going downhill through a corner it seems
> to have a constant debate with itself as to whether to let the front or the
> rear go first... almost a 4 wheel drift situation... kinda freaky... I'll
> have to see if it changes once I get my 18"s back on the rear instead of
> the skanky 15"s with high profile tyres...

Lol, I love they way people think these days that 15" 60 profile (I assume)
tyres are high profile :)
You do realise that anything under about 45 to 50 profile will actually be
harming your handling, right? due to the fact that the suspension, while very
good for a production car, is still not perfect, and a certain degree of tire
compliance is required to keep the tire flat on the road?

Anyway, next next bit is funner. A 'perfectly' setup car will 4 wheel drift,
many racing people put a LOT of effort in to achieving just that. the idea is
to get perfect neutral handling, then use brake and throttle to be able to
control under or oversteer.

Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to get a 4 wheel
drift.

Regards,
Stuart.

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 12:02:00

On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 08:34, Stuart wrote:

>
> Lol, I love they way people think these days that 15" 60 profile (I assume)
> tyres are high profile :)
> You do realise that anything under about 45 to 50 profile will actually be
> harming your handling, right? due to the fact that the suspension, while very
> good for a production car, is still not perfect, and a certain degree of tire
> compliance is required to keep the tire flat on the road?
>

You should not be making generalisations like "anything under about 45
to 50 profile will actually be harming your handling" As is in itself is
just plain bollocks. Tell that to Porsche, McClaren, WRC Tarmac rallys
etc. The lower sidewall gives less sidewall flex making the tyre quicker
to respond to changes.

Yes a 30 profile tyre on a excel with crap suspension will handle worse
but I am just correcting your generalisation that low profile tyres =
worse handling.

> Anyway, next next bit is funner. A 'perfectly' setup car will 4 wheel drift,
> many racing people put a LOT of effort in to achieving just that. the idea is
> to get perfect neutral handling, then use brake and throttle to be able to
> control under or oversteer.
>

Correct, you would want the car to give you feed back "Hey driver, I'm
starting to have abit of oversteer/understeer here" then the driver can
correct their error.

> Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to get a 4 wheel
> drift.
>

Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed and
tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.

> Regards,
> Stuart.
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 12:33:00

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:01, Nick Clewer wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 08:34, Stuart wrote:
> > Lol, I love they way people think these days that 15" 60 profile (I
> > assume) tyres are high profile :)
> > You do realise that anything under about 45 to 50 profile will actually
> > be harming your handling, right? due to the fact that the suspension,
> > while very good for a production car, is still not perfect, and a certain
> > degree of tire compliance is required to keep the tire flat on the road?
>
> You should not be making generalisations like "anything under about 45
> to 50 profile will actually be harming your handling" As is in itself is
> just plain bollocks. Tell that to Porsche, McClaren, WRC Tarmac rallys
> etc. The lower sidewall gives less sidewall flex making the tyre quicker
> to respond to changes.

And you should learn to read!
The person I'm replying to is obviously driving a McClaren LeMans type supra,
yes? or do you not understand the term "*your* handling"

> Yes a 30 profile tyre on a excel with crap suspension will handle worse
> but I am just correcting your generalisation that low profile tyres =
> worse handling.

On a Mk.3 supra, they do.

> > Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to get a 4
> > wheel drift.
>
> Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed and
> tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.

Sigh, ANY car will eventually drift! the point is that you want your car set
up so that when it does, it is a smooth equal drift, not over/understeer, is
that so hard to understand?

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 14:43:00

On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 10:33, Stuart wrote:

>
> And you should learn to read!

Nice insult, I won't return the favor.

> The person I'm replying to is obviously driving a McClaren LeMans type supra,
> yes? or do you not understand the term "*your* handling"

Perhaps he does drive a McClaren Lemans type R Super Deluxe Supra, who
really cares if he does or doesn't.

The fact is that what your said was a generalisation that was in error.
If he has the supporting suspension for the low profile tyres then the
car would handle very well.

> > Yes a 30 profile tyre on a excel with crap suspension will handle worse
> > but I am just correcting your generalisation that low profile tyres =
> > worse handling.
>
> On a Mk.3 supra, they do.
>

Another Generalisation, keep it up. Even a MK3 can be made to handle
well even with low profile rubber. Group A anyone?

> > > Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to get a 4
> > > wheel drift.
> >
> > Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed and
> > tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.
>
> Sigh, ANY car will eventually drift! the point is that you want your car set
> up so that when it does, it is a smooth equal drift, not over/understeer, is
> that so hard to understand?

Sigh returned, I did not say ANY car would not drift, I said that drift
is bad for racing, on a circuit. Perhaps re-read my response to this
section of the email.

Without insults

Nick

>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 15:09:00

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:42, Nick Clewer wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 10:33, Stuart wrote:
> > And you should learn to read!
> Nice insult, I won't return the favor.
>
> > The person I'm replying to is obviously driving a McClaren LeMans type
> > supra, yes? or do you not understand the term "*your* handling"
> Perhaps he does drive a McClaren Lemans type R Super Deluxe Supra, who
> really cares if he does or doesn't.

Sigh, No it wasn't! READ what I said!
I told HIM that very low profile tyres would make HIS handling worse, it is
NOT a generalisation, it is a reply to his exact situation.
YOU took it upon yourself to feel that it was applied to other situations.
NEVER in my post did I apply that statement to ANYTHING other than Daves car!
Understand?

> The fact is that what your said was a generalisation that was in error.
> If he has the supporting suspension for the low profile tyres then the
> car would handle very well.

Yes, I will agree to that, if he removes the suspension and fits the uneven
length A-Arm Setup from a full race car (which is quite different to our
double-wishbone), and drives on highly surfaced tracks only, then what I said
did not apply.

> > On a Mk.3 supra, they do.
> Another Generalisation, keep it up. Even a MK3 can be made to handle
> well even with low profile rubber. Group A anyone?

For christ sake get some perspective! We are NOT talking about mega cars here
with full race setups being driven on highly surfaced tracks! We ARE talking
about cars in the supras club.
Hard Shocks/Springs make NO difference to this (in fact they make it worse),
if you have the standard Mk.3 suspension arms, then very low profile tyres
are BAD, because the geometry is good, but not perfect.
True race cars are set up with 'perfect' geometry (or as close as they can
get), and usually run on VERY nice surfaces, which is a TOTALLY different
thing.
Oh, by the way, the Group a Mk.3 supra was a safari rally car, so I think you
would be quite surprised at the profile of it's tyres.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i203/20307_9mg.jpg

> > > > Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to get a
> > > > 4 wheel drift.
> > >
> > > Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed and
> > > tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.
> >
> > Sigh, ANY car will eventually drift! the point is that you want your car
> > set up so that when it does, it is a smooth equal drift, not
> > over/understeer, is that so hard to understand?
> Sigh returned, I did not say ANY car would not drift, I said that drift
> is bad for racing, on a circuit. Perhaps re-read my response to this
> section of the email.

And perhaps bother to actually read mine?
I never said draft was fast, because, as you said, it is not (actually, about
10% drift is optimal, but that is very little, and hardly counts) I said that
a well race setup car DOES drift all 4 wheels WHEN it drifts!, not that it
is a good idea to do that! The vast majority of racing drivers Do set up
there cars for close to a 4 wheel drift, which is NOT saying that they want
the drift to happen, just that it is an indication of a correctly set up car!

Or do you disagree with that? Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with how
YOU think a well setup car should handle if it is pushed too far? you have
three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel drift, go on, pick one.

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 15:46:00

I think this all stemmed from me thinking you were making a
generalisation which you have now clarified.

We could go on and on breaking points but it's pointless.

On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 13:09, Stuart wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:42, Nick Clewer wrote:
> > On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 10:33, Stuart wrote:
> > > And you should learn to read!
> > Nice insult, I won't return the favor.
> >
> > > The person I'm replying to is obviously driving a McClaren LeMans type
> > > supra, yes? or do you not understand the term "*your* handling"
> > Perhaps he does drive a McClaren Lemans type R Super Deluxe Supra, who
> > really cares if he does or doesn't.
>
> Sigh, No it wasn't! READ what I said!
> I told HIM that very low profile tyres would make HIS handling worse, it is
> NOT a generalisation, it is a reply to his exact situation.
> YOU took it upon yourself to feel that it was applied to other situations.
> NEVER in my post did I apply that statement to ANYTHING other than Daves car!
> Understand?
>
> > The fact is that what your said was a generalisation that was in error.
> > If he has the supporting suspension for the low profile tyres then the
> > car would handle very well.
>
> Yes, I will agree to that, if he removes the suspension and fits the uneven
> length A-Arm Setup from a full race car (which is quite different to our
> double-wishbone), and drives on highly surfaced tracks only, then what I said
> did not apply.
>
> > > On a Mk.3 supra, they do.
> > Another Generalisation, keep it up. Even a MK3 can be made to handle
> > well even with low profile rubber. Group A anyone?
>
> For christ sake get some perspective! We are NOT talking about mega cars here
> with full race setups being driven on highly surfaced tracks! We ARE talking
> about cars in the supras club.
> Hard Shocks/Springs make NO difference to this (in fact they make it worse),
> if you have the standard Mk.3 suspension arms, then very low profile tyres
> are BAD, because the geometry is good, but not perfect.
> True race cars are set up with 'perfect' geometry (or as close as they can
> get), and usually run on VERY nice surfaces, which is a TOTALLY different
> thing.
> Oh, by the way, the Group a Mk.3 supra was a safari rally car, so I think you
> would be quite surprised at the profile of it's tyres.
> http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i203/20307_9mg.jpg
>
>
> > > > > Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to get a
> > > > > 4 wheel drift.
> > > >
> > > > Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed and
> > > > tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.
> > >
> > > Sigh, ANY car will eventually drift! the point is that you want your car
> > > set up so that when it does, it is a smooth equal drift, not
> > > over/understeer, is that so hard to understand?
> > Sigh returned, I did not say ANY car would not drift, I said that drift
> > is bad for racing, on a circuit. Perhaps re-read my response to this
> > section of the email.
>
> And perhaps bother to actually read mine?
> I never said draft was fast, because, as you said, it is not (actually, about
> 10% drift is optimal, but that is very little, and hardly counts) I said that
> a well race setup car DOES drift all 4 wheels WHEN it drifts!, not that it
> is a good idea to do that! The vast majority of racing drivers Do set up
> there cars for close to a 4 wheel drift, which is NOT saying that they want
> the drift to happen, just that it is an indication of a correctly set up car!
>
> Or do you disagree with that? Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with how
> YOU think a well setup car should handle if it is pushed too far? you have
> three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel drift, go on, pick one.
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
--
----------
Nick Clewer
Winshop Internet Pty Ltd
http://www.winshop.com.au
nickc@winshop.com.au

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 15:57:00

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:45, Nick Clewer wrote:
> I think this all stemmed from me thinking you were making a
> generalisation which you have now clarified.

Yep, fair enough.

My only point was that the standardish Mk.3 really doesn't want very low
profile shoes if you are after best handling.
Of course, looks are a whole different matter - no one could argue that 40
profiles on 18" rims improve the look of the supra over 15's, which looks
like of pedestrian.

Personally, I hate driving my 17" 40 profiled very wide supra compared to my
50 profiled narrower 16" supra, which handles a LOT better.
The wide/low tires are a HANDFUL, especially on wet roads :(

Regards,
Stuart.

RE: Additional :)

2004-04-29 17:31:00

I'm going to jump on the band wagon here for a sec:

You said " you have three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel drift,
go on, pick one."

This is not tru at all - how often do you get all 4 wheels to simultaneously
drift at the same time - oversteer or understeer WILL happen first,
ESPECIALLY on a rwd supra!!.
And personally I'd much rather go for oversteer on a rwd - much easier to
control than a 4 wheel drift.

-----Original Message-----
From: bounce-33226-72@list.supras.org.nz
[mailto:bounce-33226-72@list.supras.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stuart
Sent: Thursday, 29 April 2004 3:09 p.m.
To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:42, Nick Clewer wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 10:33, Stuart wrote:
> > And you should learn to read!
> Nice insult, I won't return the favor.
>
> > The person I'm replying to is obviously driving a McClaren LeMans type
> > supra, yes? or do you not understand the term "*your* handling"
> Perhaps he does drive a McClaren Lemans type R Super Deluxe Supra, who
> really cares if he does or doesn't.

Sigh, No it wasn't! READ what I said!
I told HIM that very low profile tyres would make HIS handling worse, it is
NOT a generalisation, it is a reply to his exact situation.
YOU took it upon yourself to feel that it was applied to other situations.
NEVER in my post did I apply that statement to ANYTHING other than Daves
car!
Understand?

> The fact is that what your said was a generalisation that was in error.
> If he has the supporting suspension for the low profile tyres then the
> car would handle very well.

Yes, I will agree to that, if he removes the suspension and fits the uneven
length A-Arm Setup from a full race car (which is quite different to our
double-wishbone), and drives on highly surfaced tracks only, then what I
said
did not apply.

> > On a Mk.3 supra, they do.
> Another Generalisation, keep it up. Even a MK3 can be made to handle
> well even with low profile rubber. Group A anyone?

For christ sake get some perspective! We are NOT talking about mega cars
here
with full race setups being driven on highly surfaced tracks! We ARE talking

about cars in the supras club.
Hard Shocks/Springs make NO difference to this (in fact they make it worse),

if you have the standard Mk.3 suspension arms, then very low profile tyres
are BAD, because the geometry is good, but not perfect.
True race cars are set up with 'perfect' geometry (or as close as they can
get), and usually run on VERY nice surfaces, which is a TOTALLY different
thing.
Oh, by the way, the Group a Mk.3 supra was a safari rally car, so I think
you
would be quite surprised at the profile of it's tyres.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i203/20307_9mg.jpg

> > > > Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to get
a
> > > > 4 wheel drift.
> > >
> > > Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed and
> > > tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.
> >
> > Sigh, ANY car will eventually drift! the point is that you want your car
> > set up so that when it does, it is a smooth equal drift, not
> > over/understeer, is that so hard to understand?
> Sigh returned, I did not say ANY car would not drift, I said that drift
> is bad for racing, on a circuit. Perhaps re-read my response to this
> section of the email.

And perhaps bother to actually read mine?
I never said draft was fast, because, as you said, it is not (actually,
about
10% drift is optimal, but that is very little, and hardly counts) I said
that
a well race setup car DOES drift all 4 wheels WHEN it drifts!, not that it
is a good idea to do that! The vast majority of racing drivers Do set up
there cars for close to a 4 wheel drift, which is NOT saying that they want
the drift to happen, just that it is an indication of a correctly set up
car!

Or do you disagree with that? Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with
how
YOU think a well setup car should handle if it is pushed too far? you have
three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel drift, go on, pick one.

---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 17:46:00

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:30, Hunt M wrote:
> I'm going to jump on the band wagon here for a sec:
>
> You said " you have three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel drift,
> go on, pick one."
>
> This is not tru at all - how often do you get all 4 wheels to
> simultaneously drift at the same time - oversteer or understeer WILL happen
> first, ESPECIALLY on a rwd supra!!.

Actually, it happens quite easily.
On a well set up car, with a few other helping factors, the loss of traction
at one end gives a suitable weight transfer to the other to load it more,
which can result in that end also doing the same thing (ie: loosing grip).

One point to remember is that, by definition, if a car has a neutral (4 wheel)
traction loss, then it has held on for the longest time.. if you loose 2
wheels, then you were loosing those earlier than necessary.

And as I said above, there is still only 3 options, or can you name other?

> And personally I'd much rather go for oversteer on a rwd - much easier to
> control than a 4 wheel drift.

On a neutral (ie: 4 wheel drift) car, oversteer is only ever a
throttle-application away ;)

Regards,
Stuart.

RE: Additional :)

2004-04-29 18:04:00

Tell me how a 4 wheel drift is achieved in a RWD car?
A drift is a controlled slide - if your front and back wheels are sliding in
your MKIII - good luck....
Oversteer on the other hand CAN be controlled as you have some form of solid
contact - front wheels.

-----Original Message-----
From: bounce-33235-72@list.supras.org.nz
[mailto:bounce-33235-72@list.supras.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stuart
Sent: Thursday, 29 April 2004 5:46 p.m.
To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:30, Hunt M wrote:
> I'm going to jump on the band wagon here for a sec:
>
> You said " you have three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel
drift,
> go on, pick one."
>
> This is not tru at all - how often do you get all 4 wheels to
> simultaneously drift at the same time - oversteer or understeer WILL
happen
> first, ESPECIALLY on a rwd supra!!.

Actually, it happens quite easily.
On a well set up car, with a few other helping factors, the loss of traction

at one end gives a suitable weight transfer to the other to load it more,
which can result in that end also doing the same thing (ie: loosing grip).

One point to remember is that, by definition, if a car has a neutral (4
wheel)
traction loss, then it has held on for the longest time.. if you loose 2
wheels, then you were loosing those earlier than necessary.

And as I said above, there is still only 3 options, or can you name other?

> And personally I'd much rather go for oversteer on a rwd - much easier to
> control than a 4 wheel drift.

On a neutral (ie: 4 wheel drift) car, oversteer is only ever a
throttle-application away ;)

Regards,
Stuart.

---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-29 22:35:00

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:04, Hunt M wrote:
> Tell me how a 4 wheel drift is achieved in a RWD car?
By having your front and rear tyres working in their low slip mode? usually up
to around 10% is considered safe.

> A drift is a controlled slide - if your front and back wheels are sliding
> in your MKIII - good luck....
No, good skill. that's why it takes years of practice to become a good track
racer.

> Oversteer on the other hand CAN be controlled as you have some form of
> solid contact - front wheels.

Nope, your front wheels don't help control the rears in any significant way,
your throttle foot controls the rear, and your brake foot and steering the
front.
'Steer into the slide' is a good hint for road drivers in a panic, but don't
for a moment think it's how professional track drivers get around corners.

As Nick correctly said, the fast way around any track is not to significantly
lose traction at either end (well, maybe 5% or a bit more, but not really
'slide'). The point is that a car which loses the front and rear at the same
moment is the one that has managed to hold on the longest, therefore the one
that is cornering the fastest.

The best setup car will usually lose all 4 wheels at the same time, assuming
it does not have a VERY strange weight distribution (ie: 911, mr2, etc)

Regards,
Stuart.

RE: Additional :)

2004-04-29 23:42:00

Points taken - disagreed with many but hey I cant be arsed with comments and
raging opinions

One thing I do disagree with is your comment about the front wheels not
controlling the rears - could you get any further from the truth? With the
front wheels having traction this is helping pull the rear wheels around the
corner. With them sliding you will not have anywhere near as much control

-----Original Message-----
From: bounce-33242-72@list.supras.org.nz
[mailto:bounce-33242-72@list.supras.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stuart
Sent: Thursday, 29 April 2004 10:35 p.m.
To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:04, Hunt M wrote:
> Tell me how a 4 wheel drift is achieved in a RWD car?
By having your front and rear tyres working in their low slip mode? usually
up
to around 10% is considered safe.

> A drift is a controlled slide - if your front and back wheels are sliding
> in your MKIII - good luck....
No, good skill. that's why it takes years of practice to become a good track

racer.

> Oversteer on the other hand CAN be controlled as you have some form of
> solid contact - front wheels.

Nope, your front wheels don't help control the rears in any significant way,

your throttle foot controls the rear, and your brake foot and steering the
front.
'Steer into the slide' is a good hint for road drivers in a panic, but don't

for a moment think it's how professional track drivers get around corners.

As Nick correctly said, the fast way around any track is not to
significantly
lose traction at either end (well, maybe 5% or a bit more, but not really
'slide'). The point is that a car which loses the front and rear at the same

moment is the one that has managed to hold on the longest, therefore the one

that is cornering the fastest.

The best setup car will usually lose all 4 wheels at the same time, assuming

it does not have a VERY strange weight distribution (ie: 911, mr2, etc)

Regards,
Stuart.

---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 07:43:00

Indeed the rears are currently 205/60/15, however compared to 235/40/18's
stretched on a 10" rim, there is a great deal of difference in sidewall flex
when cornering, something I'm trying to eliminate...

I realise a 4 wheel drift is an ideal setup (neutral in other words) but
this car is being setup and driven as a drift car so I prefer the back end
to let go and never the front :)

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart" <stuartw@kcbbs.gen.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)

> > As for having it stuck in hard mode, well it certainly does make a
> > difference, the car feels slightly less boatish around most corners, you
> > feel the bumps in the road a little bit more, however it has introduced
a
> > disconcerting tendency that when going downhill through a corner it
seems
> > to have a constant debate with itself as to whether to let the front or
the
> > rear go first... almost a 4 wheel drift situation... kinda freaky...
I'll
> > have to see if it changes once I get my 18"s back on the rear instead of
> > the skanky 15"s with high profile tyres...
>
> Lol, I love they way people think these days that 15" 60 profile (I
assume)
> tyres are high profile :)
> You do realise that anything under about 45 to 50 profile will actually be
> harming your handling, right? due to the fact that the suspension, while
very
> good for a production car, is still not perfect, and a certain degree of
tire
> compliance is required to keep the tire flat on the road?
>
> Anyway, next next bit is funner. A 'perfectly' setup car will 4 wheel
drift,
> many racing people put a LOT of effort in to achieving just that. the idea
is
> to get perfect neutral handling, then use brake and throttle to be able to
> control under or oversteer.
>
> Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to get a 4
wheel
> drift.
>
> Regards,
> Stuart.
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 07:53:00

You're asking for it there hunt... *warns you to borrow his steel boots
BEFORE you try to shoot yourself in the foot next time*

He is completely correct about 4 wheel drift being the ideal setup for a
racing car, that it will gradually slide all 4 wheels sideways, in fact its
normally ideal for most cars where the driver has a clue what he/she is
doing, however most cars are setup with understeer from factory because
n00bs are more likely to be able to recover from it rather than a) spinning
off into the bush with oversteer or b) sliding straight into the gutter with
4 wheel slides...

I'm sure Stu, Cully and Mark will all "enlighten" you with specifics about
all this... but yeah :)

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunt M" <5uprah@supras.co.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: [sconz] Additional :)

> I'm going to jump on the band wagon here for a sec:
>
> You said " you have three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel
drift,
> go on, pick one."
>
> This is not tru at all - how often do you get all 4 wheels to
simultaneously
> drift at the same time - oversteer or understeer WILL happen first,
> ESPECIALLY on a rwd supra!!.
> And personally I'd much rather go for oversteer on a rwd - much easier to
> control than a 4 wheel drift.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bounce-33226-72@list.supras.org.nz
> [mailto:bounce-33226-72@list.supras.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stuart
> Sent: Thursday, 29 April 2004 3:09 p.m.
> To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)
>
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:42, Nick Clewer wrote:
> > On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 10:33, Stuart wrote:
> > > And you should learn to read!
> > Nice insult, I won't return the favor.
> >
> > > The person I'm replying to is obviously driving a McClaren LeMans type
> > > supra, yes? or do you not understand the term "*your* handling"
> > Perhaps he does drive a McClaren Lemans type R Super Deluxe Supra, who
> > really cares if he does or doesn't.
>
> Sigh, No it wasn't! READ what I said!
> I told HIM that very low profile tyres would make HIS handling worse, it
is
> NOT a generalisation, it is a reply to his exact situation.
> YOU took it upon yourself to feel that it was applied to other situations.
> NEVER in my post did I apply that statement to ANYTHING other than Daves
> car!
> Understand?
>
> > The fact is that what your said was a generalisation that was in error.
> > If he has the supporting suspension for the low profile tyres then the
> > car would handle very well.
>
> Yes, I will agree to that, if he removes the suspension and fits the
uneven
> length A-Arm Setup from a full race car (which is quite different to our
> double-wishbone), and drives on highly surfaced tracks only, then what I
> said
> did not apply.
>
> > > On a Mk.3 supra, they do.
> > Another Generalisation, keep it up. Even a MK3 can be made to handle
> > well even with low profile rubber. Group A anyone?
>
> For christ sake get some perspective! We are NOT talking about mega cars
> here
> with full race setups being driven on highly surfaced tracks! We ARE
talking
>
> about cars in the supras club.
> Hard Shocks/Springs make NO difference to this (in fact they make it
worse),
>
> if you have the standard Mk.3 suspension arms, then very low profile tyres
> are BAD, because the geometry is good, but not perfect.
> True race cars are set up with 'perfect' geometry (or as close as they can
> get), and usually run on VERY nice surfaces, which is a TOTALLY different
> thing.
> Oh, by the way, the Group a Mk.3 supra was a safari rally car, so I think
> you
> would be quite surprised at the profile of it's tyres.
>
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i203/20307_9mg.jpg
>
>
> > > > > Very few racing people would be complaining about being able to
get
> a
> > > > > 4 wheel drift.
> > > >
> > > > Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed and
> > > > tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.
> > >
> > > Sigh, ANY car will eventually drift! the point is that you want your
car
> > > set up so that when it does, it is a smooth equal drift, not
> > > over/understeer, is that so hard to understand?
> > Sigh returned, I did not say ANY car would not drift, I said that drift
> > is bad for racing, on a circuit. Perhaps re-read my response to this
> > section of the email.
>
> And perhaps bother to actually read mine?
> I never said draft was fast, because, as you said, it is not (actually,
> about
> 10% drift is optimal, but that is very little, and hardly counts) I said
> that
> a well race setup car DOES drift all 4 wheels WHEN it drifts!, not that
it
> is a good idea to do that! The vast majority of racing drivers Do set up
> there cars for close to a 4 wheel drift, which is NOT saying that they
want
> the drift to happen, just that it is an indication of a correctly set up
> car!
>
> Or do you disagree with that? Perhaps you would like to enlighten us with
> how
> YOU think a well setup car should handle if it is pushed too far? you have
> three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel drift, go on, pick one.
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 07:55:00

Uh oh...
drift is NEVER a "controlled" slide... contrary to drifters beleifs :)

A drift is a loss of traction in either the front, the rear or all 4 of your
cars wheels, a loss of traction = a loss of control... It is true that with
skill and practice you can recover from this situation, but it is still a
loss of control....

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunt M" <5uprah@supras.co.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 6:04 PM
Subject: RE: [sconz] Additional :)

> Tell me how a 4 wheel drift is achieved in a RWD car?
> A drift is a controlled slide - if your front and back wheels are sliding
in
> your MKIII - good luck....
> Oversteer on the other hand CAN be controlled as you have some form of
solid
> contact - front wheels.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bounce-33235-72@list.supras.org.nz
> [mailto:bounce-33235-72@list.supras.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stuart
> Sent: Thursday, 29 April 2004 5:46 p.m.
> To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)
>
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:30, Hunt M wrote:
> > I'm going to jump on the band wagon here for a sec:
> >
> > You said " you have three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel
> drift,
> > go on, pick one."
> >
> > This is not tru at all - how often do you get all 4 wheels to
> > simultaneously drift at the same time - oversteer or understeer WILL
> happen
> > first, ESPECIALLY on a rwd supra!!.
>
> Actually, it happens quite easily.
> On a well set up car, with a few other helping factors, the loss of
traction
>
> at one end gives a suitable weight transfer to the other to load it more,
> which can result in that end also doing the same thing (ie: loosing grip).
>
> One point to remember is that, by definition, if a car has a neutral (4
> wheel)
> traction loss, then it has held on for the longest time.. if you loose 2
> wheels, then you were loosing those earlier than necessary.
>
> And as I said above, there is still only 3 options, or can you name other?
>
> > And personally I'd much rather go for oversteer on a rwd - much easier
to
> > control than a 4 wheel drift.
>
> On a neutral (ie: 4 wheel drift) car, oversteer is only ever a
> throttle-application away ;)
>
> Regards,
> Stuart.
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 09:30:00

If you're reffering to me (Well actually Marc with a 'c' :)
Im no expert in this subject. It's been quite interesting and great to see
this thread progress; Im thankful the experts are here!

How many other forums have you subscribed to that are full of 'that-sounds-
right'ers', 'me-too'ers' and/or illterate dribblers?

Naturally I'd expect *anyone* who has a different understanding to thrash it
out here.

Cheers,
Marc

> I'm sure Stu, Cully and Mark will all "enlighten" you with specifics
> about
> all this... but yeah :)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Thom
> A+ Certified Systems Engineer
> 021 140 4657
> davet@boost.org.nz
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hunt M" <5uprah@supras.co.nz>
> To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:30 PM
> Subject: RE: [sconz] Additional :)
>
>
> > I'm going to jump on the band wagon here for a sec:
> >
> > You said " you have three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel
> drift,
> > go on, pick one."
> >
> > This is not tru at all - how often do you get all 4 wheels to
> simultaneously
> > drift at the same time - oversteer or understeer WILL happen first,
> > ESPECIALLY on a rwd supra!!.
> > And personally I'd much rather go for oversteer on a rwd - much easier
> to
> > control than a 4 wheel drift.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: bounce-33226-72@list.supras.org.nz
> > [mailto:bounce-33226-72@list.supras.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stuart
> > Sent: Thursday, 29 April 2004 3:09 p.m.
> > To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)
> >
> > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:42, Nick Clewer wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 10:33, Stuart wrote:
> > > > And you should learn to read!
> > > Nice insult, I won't return the favor.
> > >
> > > > The person I'm replying to is obviously driving a McClaren LeMans
> type
> > > > supra, yes? or do you not understand the term "*your* handling"
> > > Perhaps he does drive a McClaren Lemans type R Super Deluxe Supra,
> who
> > > really cares if he does or doesn't.
> >
> > Sigh, No it wasn't! READ what I said!
> > I told HIM that very low profile tyres would make HIS handling worse,
> it
> is
> > NOT a generalisation, it is a reply to his exact situation.
> > YOU took it upon yourself to feel that it was applied to other
> situations.
> > NEVER in my post did I apply that statement to ANYTHING other than
> Daves
> > car!
> > Understand?
> >
> > > The fact is that what your said was a generalisation that was in
> error.
> > > If he has the supporting suspension for the low profile tyres then
> the
> > > car would handle very well.
> >
> > Yes, I will agree to that, if he removes the suspension and fits the
> uneven
> > length A-Arm Setup from a full race car (which is quite different to
> our
> > double-wishbone), and drives on highly surfaced tracks only, then what
> I
> > said
> > did not apply.
> >
> > > > On a Mk.3 supra, they do.
> > > Another Generalisation, keep it up. Even a MK3 can be made to
> handle
> > > well even with low profile rubber. Group A anyone?
> >
> > For christ sake get some perspective! We are NOT talking about mega
> cars
> > here
> > with full race setups being driven on highly surfaced tracks! We ARE
> talking
> >
> > about cars in the supras club.
> > Hard Shocks/Springs make NO difference to this (in fact they make it
> worse),
> >
> > if you have the standard Mk.3 suspension arms, then very low profile
> tyres
> > are BAD, because the geometry is good, but not perfect.
> > True race cars are set up with 'perfect' geometry (or as close as they
> can
> > get), and usually run on VERY nice surfaces, which is a TOTALLY
> different
> > thing.
> > Oh, by the way, the Group a Mk.3 supra was a safari rally car, so I
> think
> > you
> > would be quite surprised at the profile of it's tyres.
> >
> http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i203/20307_9mg.jpg
> >
> >
> > > > > > Very few racing people would be complaining about being able
> to
> get
> > a
> > > > > > 4 wheel drift.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed
> and
> > > > > tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.
> > > >
> > > > Sigh, ANY car will eventually drift! the point is that you want
> your
> car
> > > > set up so that when it does, it is a smooth equal drift, not
> > > > over/understeer, is that so hard to understand?
> > > Sigh returned, I did not say ANY car would not drift, I said that
> drift
> > > is bad for racing, on a circuit. Perhaps re-read my response to
> this
> > > section of the email.
> >
> > And perhaps bother to actually read mine?
> > I never said draft was fast, because, as you said, it is not
> (actually,
> > about
> > 10% drift is optimal, but that is very little, and hardly counts) I
> said
> > that
> > a well race setup car DOES drift all 4 wheels WHEN it drifts!, not
> that
> it
> > is a good idea to do that! The vast majority of racing drivers Do set
> up
> > there cars for close to a 4 wheel drift, which is NOT saying that
> they
> want
> > the drift to happen, just that it is an indication of a correctly set
> up
> > car!
> >
> > Or do you disagree with that? Perhaps you would like to enlighten us
> with
> > how
> > YOU think a well setup car should handle if it is pushed too far? you
> have
> > three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel drift, go on, pick
> one.
> >
> > ---
> > Supra Club of New Zealand
> > http://www.supras.org.nz/
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Supra Club of New Zealand
> > http://www.supras.org.nz/
> >
>
>
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 10:55:00

I apologise for the misspelling :) most forums have those people, and
generally the other forums I view are full of younger people who argue
completely inane points of view, such as the arguments I had yesterday about
a) RB20DET's having factory BOV's or not and b) BOV's being a good thing to
have on an engine for turbo life...

But hey, everyone has to be wrong sometime I guess...

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Archbold" <marc.a@paradise.net.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)

>
> If you're reffering to me (Well actually Marc with a 'c' :)
> Im no expert in this subject. It's been quite interesting and great to
see
> this thread progress; Im thankful the experts are here!
>
> How many other forums have you subscribed to that are full of
'that-sounds-
> right'ers', 'me-too'ers' and/or illterate dribblers?
>
> Naturally I'd expect *anyone* who has a different understanding to thrash
it
> out here.
>
> Cheers,
> Marc
>
>
> > I'm sure Stu, Cully and Mark will all "enlighten" you with specifics
> > about
> > all this... but yeah :)
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dave Thom
> > A+ Certified Systems Engineer
> > 021 140 4657
> > davet@boost.org.nz
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Hunt M" <5uprah@supras.co.nz>
> > To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:30 PM
> > Subject: RE: [sconz] Additional :)
> >
> >
> > > I'm going to jump on the band wagon here for a sec:
> > >
> > > You said " you have three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel
> > drift,
> > > go on, pick one."
> > >
> > > This is not tru at all - how often do you get all 4 wheels to
> > simultaneously
> > > drift at the same time - oversteer or understeer WILL happen first,
> > > ESPECIALLY on a rwd supra!!.
> > > And personally I'd much rather go for oversteer on a rwd - much easier
> > to
> > > control than a 4 wheel drift.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bounce-33226-72@list.supras.org.nz
> > > [mailto:bounce-33226-72@list.supras.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stuart
> > > Sent: Thursday, 29 April 2004 3:09 p.m.
> > > To: Supra Club of NZ Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)
> > >
> > > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:42, Nick Clewer wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 10:33, Stuart wrote:
> > > > > And you should learn to read!
> > > > Nice insult, I won't return the favor.
> > > >
> > > > > The person I'm replying to is obviously driving a McClaren LeMans
> > type
> > > > > supra, yes? or do you not understand the term "*your* handling"
> > > > Perhaps he does drive a McClaren Lemans type R Super Deluxe Supra,
> > who
> > > > really cares if he does or doesn't.
> > >
> > > Sigh, No it wasn't! READ what I said!
> > > I told HIM that very low profile tyres would make HIS handling worse,
> > it
> > is
> > > NOT a generalisation, it is a reply to his exact situation.
> > > YOU took it upon yourself to feel that it was applied to other
> > situations.
> > > NEVER in my post did I apply that statement to ANYTHING other than
> > Daves
> > > car!
> > > Understand?
> > >
> > > > The fact is that what your said was a generalisation that was in
> > error.
> > > > If he has the supporting suspension for the low profile tyres then
> > the
> > > > car would handle very well.
> > >
> > > Yes, I will agree to that, if he removes the suspension and fits the
> > uneven
> > > length A-Arm Setup from a full race car (which is quite different to
> > our
> > > double-wishbone), and drives on highly surfaced tracks only, then what
> > I
> > > said
> > > did not apply.
> > >
> > > > > On a Mk.3 supra, they do.
> > > > Another Generalisation, keep it up. Even a MK3 can be made to
> > handle
> > > > well even with low profile rubber. Group A anyone?
> > >
> > > For christ sake get some perspective! We are NOT talking about mega
> > cars
> > > here
> > > with full race setups being driven on highly surfaced tracks! We ARE
> > talking
> > >
> > > about cars in the supras club.
> > > Hard Shocks/Springs make NO difference to this (in fact they make it
> > worse),
> > >
> > > if you have the standard Mk.3 suspension arms, then very low profile
> > tyres
> > > are BAD, because the geometry is good, but not perfect.
> > > True race cars are set up with 'perfect' geometry (or as close as they
> > can
> > > get), and usually run on VERY nice surfaces, which is a TOTALLY
> > different
> > > thing.
> > > Oh, by the way, the Group a Mk.3 supra was a safari rally car, so I
> > think
> > > you
> > > would be quite surprised at the profile of it's tyres.
> > >
> >
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i203/20307_9mg.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > > Very few racing people would be complaining about being able
> > to
> > get
> > > a
> > > > > > > 4 wheel drift.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nope, any drift is bad for racing, it scrubs off too much speed
> > and
> > > > > > tears up tyres. Rally aside of course.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sigh, ANY car will eventually drift! the point is that you want
> > your
> > car
> > > > > set up so that when it does, it is a smooth equal drift, not
> > > > > over/understeer, is that so hard to understand?
> > > > Sigh returned, I did not say ANY car would not drift, I said that
> > drift
> > > > is bad for racing, on a circuit. Perhaps re-read my response to
> > this
> > > > section of the email.
> > >
> > > And perhaps bother to actually read mine?
> > > I never said draft was fast, because, as you said, it is not
> > (actually,
> > > about
> > > 10% drift is optimal, but that is very little, and hardly counts) I
> > said
> > > that
> > > a well race setup car DOES drift all 4 wheels WHEN it drifts!, not
> > that
> > it
> > > is a good idea to do that! The vast majority of racing drivers Do set
> > up
> > > there cars for close to a 4 wheel drift, which is NOT saying that
> > they
> > want
> > > the drift to happen, just that it is an indication of a correctly set
> > up
> > > car!
> > >
> > > Or do you disagree with that? Perhaps you would like to enlighten us
> > with
> > > how
> > > YOU think a well setup car should handle if it is pushed too far? you
> > have
> > > three options, understeer, oversteer, or 4 wheel drift, go on, pick
> > one.
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Supra Club of New Zealand
> > > http://www.supras.org.nz/
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Supra Club of New Zealand
> > > http://www.supras.org.nz/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Supra Club of New Zealand
> > http://www.supras.org.nz/
> >
>
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 11:00:00

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:54, Dave Thom wrote:
> I apologise for the misspelling :) most forums have those people, and
> generally the other forums I view are full of younger people who argue
> completely inane points of view, such as the arguments I had yesterday
> about a) RB20DET's having factory BOV's or not and b) BOV's being a good
> thing to have on an engine for turbo life...

Pretty sure the answer to A is no, depends on the age of the car though I
suspect, the RB20DET having been around for a while.. pretty sure my brothers
one never had one back in the day. care to correct me? always good to
learn ;)

Please tell me the answer to B was 'yes'??

> But hey, everyone has to be wrong sometime I guess...

Being wrong can be usefull, because it means new learning!

Regards,
Stuart.

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 11:03:00

Actually for the purpose of the argument the answer to A was yes, RB20DET's
(non NICS red tops that is) do come factory with a recirculating BOV in
Skylines, but the C33 Laurels and A31 Cefiros didn't recieve a BOV
factory...

The answer to B, well yes I was arguing that yes BOV's are a good thing, my
argument was I want to install one before I put my boost kit on, two others
were arguing that they're just rice and they don't help turbo life and don't
do any benefit etc etc...

Being wrong can mean learning, so long as you're willing to accept you are
wrong when its proven and learn from that, rather than arguing pig headedly
against blatant facts like some people seem to do :\

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart" <stuartw@kcbbs.gen.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)

> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:54, Dave Thom wrote:
> > I apologise for the misspelling :) most forums have those people, and
> > generally the other forums I view are full of younger people who argue
> > completely inane points of view, such as the arguments I had yesterday
> > about a) RB20DET's having factory BOV's or not and b) BOV's being a good
> > thing to have on an engine for turbo life...
>
> Pretty sure the answer to A is no, depends on the age of the car though I
> suspect, the RB20DET having been around for a while.. pretty sure my
brothers
> one never had one back in the day. care to correct me? always good to
> learn ;)
>
> Please tell me the answer to B was 'yes'??
>
> > But hey, everyone has to be wrong sometime I guess...
>
> Being wrong can be usefull, because it means new learning!
>
> Regards,
> Stuart.
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>

RE: Additional :)

2004-04-30 11:08:00

> and b) BOV's being a
> > good thing to have on an engine for turbo life...

> Please tell me the answer to B was 'yes'??

You'd not believe some of the crap that people spout about turbo systems
in general. Things like:
"I can hear it going in and out of balance as it spools up"
"I didn't think roller ball turbos needed an oil supply" (yes really -
pile of molten slag that used to be a turbo sitting on the bench in
front of him as he said it...
"I never had it above 8psi! Honestly"

In fact that last one is the real common one. People seem to think that
they can take their DOHC Mazda turbo and crank up the boost to insane
levels perfectly safely. They then come back 2 days later trying to
claim a turbo under warranty and professing innocence. Then the turbo
gets taken apart and the ruined thrust bearing kinda gives it away.

BTW, if anyone ever has to take a turbo back under warranty for any
reason: be honest. Once they're apart the symptoms of what's happened
are black and white 99% of the time...

Cully

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 11:13:00

On that subject, I wouldn't mind hearing from the expert on the matter...
Once I've put the boost kit in my soarer (with Gen 3 1G-GTE, factory 11psi
boost) and with everything else completely standard (bar 3" exhaust and no
filter) what sort of maximum boost level can I run up to? And then at that
maximum is the restriction the turbos or the intercooler or the fuelling
system?

Cheers :)

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cully Paterson" <Cully@supras.org.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: [sconz] Additional :)

> and b) BOV's being a
> > good thing to have on an engine for turbo life...

> Please tell me the answer to B was 'yes'??

You'd not believe some of the crap that people spout about turbo systems
in general. Things like:
"I can hear it going in and out of balance as it spools up"
"I didn't think roller ball turbos needed an oil supply" (yes really -
pile of molten slag that used to be a turbo sitting on the bench in
front of him as he said it...
"I never had it above 8psi! Honestly"

In fact that last one is the real common one. People seem to think that
they can take their DOHC Mazda turbo and crank up the boost to insane
levels perfectly safely. They then come back 2 days later trying to
claim a turbo under warranty and professing innocence. Then the turbo
gets taken apart and the ruined thrust bearing kinda gives it away.

BTW, if anyone ever has to take a turbo back under warranty for any
reason: be honest. Once they're apart the symptoms of what's happened
are black and white 99% of the time...

Cully

---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/

RE: Additional :)

2004-04-30 11:17:00

> On that subject, I wouldn't mind hearing from the expert on
> the matter...

Nah, none of them around here. But you can have my opinion instead ;)

> Once I've put the boost kit in my soarer (with Gen 3 1G-GTE,
> factory 11psi
> boost) and with everything else completely standard (bar 3"
> exhaust and no
> filter) what sort of maximum boost level can I run up to? And
> then at that maximum is the restriction the turbos or the
> intercooler or the fuelling system?

I wouldn't plan on going regularly over 14psi. The CT12s are just too
small and delicate to handle it. At that point they're about running
out of their compressor efficiency zone anyway, and the intercooler
won't have much left to give.

Now, as far as "no filter" is concerned - do you mean no air filter? If
so, naughty boy!

Cully

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 11:23:00

If your talking about blow off valves in conjuction with a 1G-GTE I highly
recomend reading the article by Phil Strong on "1GGTE Bosch BOV
modification" , this is ceratinly an advantage. Although external venting
valves tend not to work to well on a 1G-GTE because of the fact that they
use an airflow meter

the article is on the NZ tech site http://www.supras.org.nz/techinfo/

Cheers
Lee MKII 1G-GTE (missing one turbo)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Thom" <supras@boost.org.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)

> Actually for the purpose of the argument the answer to A was yes,
RB20DET's
> (non NICS red tops that is) do come factory with a recirculating BOV in
> Skylines, but the C33 Laurels and A31 Cefiros didn't recieve a BOV
> factory...
>
> The answer to B, well yes I was arguing that yes BOV's are a good thing,
my
> argument was I want to install one before I put my boost kit on, two
others
> were arguing that they're just rice and they don't help turbo life and
don't
> do any benefit etc etc...
>
> Being wrong can mean learning, so long as you're willing to accept you are
> wrong when its proven and learn from that, rather than arguing pig
headedly
> against blatant facts like some people seem to do :\
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave Thom
> A+ Certified Systems Engineer
> 021 140 4657
> davet@boost.org.nz
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stuart" <stuartw@kcbbs.gen.nz>
> To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [sconz] Additional :)
>
>
> > On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:54, Dave Thom wrote:
> > > I apologise for the misspelling :) most forums have those people, and
> > > generally the other forums I view are full of younger people who argue
> > > completely inane points of view, such as the arguments I had yesterday
> > > about a) RB20DET's having factory BOV's or not and b) BOV's being a
good
> > > thing to have on an engine for turbo life...
> >
> > Pretty sure the answer to A is no, depends on the age of the car though
I
> > suspect, the RB20DET having been around for a while.. pretty sure my
> brothers
> > one never had one back in the day. care to correct me? always good to
> > learn ;)
> >
> > Please tell me the answer to B was 'yes'??
> >
> > > But hey, everyone has to be wrong sometime I guess...
> >
> > Being wrong can be usefull, because it means new learning!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Stuart.
> >
> > ---
> > Supra Club of New Zealand
> > http://www.supras.org.nz/
> >
>
>
>
> ---
> Supra Club of New Zealand
> http://www.supras.org.nz/
>

Re: Additional :)

2004-04-30 11:28:00

Oh dear, am I in for a spanking? :P

I'm sure one day I'll have enough money to waste on a custom flange to the
AFM, custom piping and a nice pod filter to mount down low in the front
bumper for some nice cold intake air...

In the meantime... I'll just keep being naughty :)

Cheers for the advice... I'm planning to probably keep whatever boost it
sits at with the boost kit installed (ie. it should raise a couple of psi so
will probably put me at 14.5psi) but I'm fairly sure I'll get sick of the
lack of power and start fiddling, I'll just try and restrain myself until
I've saved up for the single turbo conversion and gtr intercooler...

Regards,

Dave Thom
A+ Certified Systems Engineer
021 140 4657
davet@boost.org.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cully Paterson" <Cully@supras.org.nz>
To: "Supra Club of NZ Mailing List" <sconz@list.supras.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: [sconz] Additional :)

> On that subject, I wouldn't mind hearing from the expert on
> the matter...

Nah, none of them around here. But you can have my opinion instead ;)

> Once I've put the boost kit in my soarer (with Gen 3 1G-GTE,
> factory 11psi
> boost) and with everything else completely standard (bar 3"
> exhaust and no
> filter) what sort of maximum boost level can I run up to? And
> then at that maximum is the restriction the turbos or the
> intercooler or the fuelling system?

I wouldn't plan on going regularly over 14psi. The CT12s are just too
small and delicate to handle it. At that point they're about running
out of their compressor efficiency zone anyway, and the intercooler
won't have much left to give.

Now, as far as "no filter" is concerned - do you mean no air filter? If
so, naughty boy!

Cully

---
Supra Club of New Zealand
http://www.supras.org.nz/

RE: Additional :)

2004-04-30 11:30:00

> I'm sure one day I'll have enough money to waste on a custom > flange to the AFM, custom piping and a nice pod filter to > mount down low in the front bumper for some nice cold intake air... > > In the meantime... I'll just keep being naughty :) Hey, if you want rooted turbos, be my guest...